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No Crank No Start.. sometimes... Wiring diagrams anyone?
I have had this ongoing problem with my 02 ranger 4.0 4x4. It will intermitently not crank not start. Dont know when its going to do it and dont know why. All i know is after eventually trying to hold down the key or turning the key multiple times it will eventually crank/start within a minute or so. I have replaced the ignition switch, i have replaced the entire battery harness, starter relay. The battery harness seemed to "alleviate" the issue. It cranked every single time for about 2 months straight, then intermittently cranked for about 2 weeks, followed by another month of perfect starts and now its back to random no crank no starts.
Ive already tried tackling this issue before a few times and this is what i have tried.
Cleaning all available engine bay grounds.
Wiggling the key up and down/ in-out does nothing to help start the truck
Wiggling the shift column/ shifting the truck out of park into neutral does nothing to help start the truck
PATS(theft) light does not indicate any signs of malfunction (normal flash)
PO says he replaced the starter with a reman and it did nothing.
From what i remember i believe the issue is i wasnt getting a full 12v signal to the signal wire for the starter solenoid on my no crank no starts. I would either get 10 or 11v to the relay on a "no crank" situation. Dont quote me on that, id have to retest voltage all over again.
I have ordered a digital voltmeter LCD which im going to tap directly to the starter solenoid wire so i can get "LIVE" readings. I usually dont have enough time to "TEST" because after "cranking the key" a few times the truck will eventually crank/start over and i wont be able to test it any longer. Its really annoying because when it decides to NOT CRANK i dont have the time or the tools to test it..
I have a pretty good idea of how to retest everything all over again. The best thing i can receive other than advice right now is a revised wiring diagram of the starting circuit. I looked up on an old haynes manual and it indicates there is another unkown mystery starter relay seen here http://prntscr.com/kvm3uj. However other people have also asked about this starter interrupt relay with no conclusive answers.
The power path for starter motor activation starts at ignition switch under the steering column
When pushed into START position it sends 12v to fuse #24 in cab fuse panel
That 12v is then passed to the Clutch By-pass connection(automatic) above brake pedal area, and then the 12v is passed on to the DTR(digital transmission range) sensor
If in Park or Neutral the DTR sensor passes that 12v to the Starter Relay in the engine Fuse box
If PATS has grounded that Relay then it Closes and sends 12v from fuse #11 in engine fuse box to the starter motors built-in Relay and starter motor activates.
diagram below
Quick check
Pull out the starter relay in engine fuse box
Key off
Test each slot
only one slot should have 12v, thats from Fuse #11 in engine fuse box, it has power all the time
Have someone turn key to START and hold it there
test the other slots for 12v, there should now be one more slowing 12v, and it should be stable, thats the 12v from the ignition switch that has passed thru all the connections
If no 12v or its not stable then problem is in one of the connections, i.e. ignition switch, fuse #24, By-pass jumper, DTR switch, even starter relays socket in the fuse box
If you do have stable 12v at relay with key in START position, then use diagram above to see which slot will be the GROUND for the coil, if 12v is on 85 then ground will be 86 and visa versa, there is no standard, Ford reversed these all the time, so posted diagram below maybe right or wrong as far as 85 and 86 are concerned
With key in ON position check to make sure slot is a GROUND, thats PATS working, and the ground wire from PATS(computer) working
Thank you for the input and the diagram. I have already gone through fuse 11 and 24 and everything else basically. I am familiar with the starting sequence. From the diagram posted it doesnt appear there is an additional relay besides the one inside of the engine compartment. I got my meter in but am still waiting for some fuse taps so i can get a voltage reading "as it happens".
Im not sure if you understood that i cant test this as i would a known bad circuit because it happens intermittently. Like if i go test everything right now of course its problably going to show everything is good and the truck will start. The problem is when it doesnt start its random, and thats when i need to know what the voltage is at the different points in the circuit. The only way i can do that is by having a meter already wired in before hand, so that when it doesnt start i could see what the voltage is at each point of the circuit. Sometimes the truck will crank all day, Sometimes it will crank all day but after letting it sit a while i will come back to it later and it wont crank immediately as i turn the key. Sometimes after turning the truck off and immediately trying to restart it, it wont crank.. Its completely random. Most of the time though the truck will eventually crank/start over within a minute of trying to start the key multiple times or just by holding it in place. So i only have a few precious seconds to see what the voltage is, when its a no crank situation.
I would change the Starter Relay in the engine fuse box, $8, just on speculation, or swap it with Window Washer Relay
Theft light is not Flashing rapidly when it happens so PATS is not the issue, make sure Theft light bulb works, should flash every 10seconds or so key off
When there is a No Crank, shift transmission to Neutral, then retry, if it cranks then check for slack in shift cable if its OK then replace or realign DTR sensor on transmission
Me again i was off on vacation for a couple weeks but now i have returned and had time to do some testing. I have already swapped and replaced the starter relay. I have already tried shifting into neutral while cranking and it doesnt crank over.
I have added the fuse tap on 24 with the voltmeter LCD in place and concluded i get around +-11.5-11.7volts when key is on START. Rarely i have gotten as low as 10.5. Battery voltage is around 12.5 most of the time but i also got it load tested at the auto store and they told me its 100% good. I have already replaced the ignition switch but not the cylinder. Does this sound like a cylinder issue?
Ron I tested the circuits.
I get 12v at fuse 11 coming from the battery.
I get 12v at pin 30 on the starter relay, which is the always hot leg.
I get 12v at pin 85 when I turn key to start.
This would mean the starting circuit is fine. But like I explained this is intermittent. I have fusetapped a voltmeter in line with the circuit, and every morning when it doesn't start I only get 11.5 volts to fuse 2.24 which is before the relay, trans range, a according to the diagram I saw so that contradicts the theory that the starting circuit is fine. I replaced the ignition switch already with a motorcraft unit. How should I proceed?
I placed a three way switch. I will be able to monitor battery voltage as well as the voltage to fuse 2.24 (after ignition before relay) and report back. One thing i noticed when i viewed the battery voltage live, is that as soon as i switch the igntion from ON to RUN (not start) my battery voltage drops by .20-.30v. Is this normal?
No, probably not the key cylinder, although the actuator rod that runs down to the ignition switch is not off the table, when you turn the key a gear on the back of the cylinder moves the actuator rod, and that is what slides the ignition switch into its 4 positions
ACC, OFF, RUN, START
#1 in picture is the pin/shaft that Locks the steering wheel, just FYI
If this gear setup is worn then it may not move ignition switch all the way to START every time, and you would see no Volts at fuse 2.24
Yes, voltage should drop from OFF to RUN
Yes, if fuse 2.24 doesn't show voltage with key in START position then problem is in steering column or wire to fuse 2.24
If fuse 2.24 has voltage then starter motor should be actived so voltage should drop
If you pull the starter relay and then test, 2.24 should show battery voltage
I'm having the same issue with my '04. There are thread after thread of forum posts out there in internet land dealing with this same issue and, as all too often, when people find a fix, they never check back to say "Oh hey, this or that fixed it", which in Cain's America would be punishable by death. But I digress.
It starts and runs fine then I'll stop somewhere and, out of the blue, no crank, no start. Like you, I've cleaned grounds and tested everything till I was blue in the face.
I'm leaning toward PATS intermittently not recognizing the ONLY key I have for the truck, which incidentally looks exactly like it was unearthed in some pharaoh's tomb, so...
I got the truck in November. Since then I've done a butt load of work to it. Had to put a new top end on the engine... the list goes on. This issue (along with a few others that lurk beyond the surface) was never presented to me during the sale. Gee, I wonder why?
The first time it happened to me, I was on my way home from buying it, stoped to get a soda and top off the tank and nothing. I was like WT literal F?!?
It started after a while and everything seemed good but still worrisome.
Drove it three days, head gasket went. Spent the next few weeks fixing that. Got it all back together and it ran great, the first two times I started it, then BOOM. No click, no start. Cleared up after ten minutes and I was off and running. Started great for the next... say... 25 or so starts. And then, there was today... well, today the Ranger is being a little, angsty, son of a bit$# and has done this TWICE to me so far!
I've tried turning the wheel and all that other internet acquired "knowledge". Nothing but letting it set for (and I timed this) 10 minutes from the last failed attempt will work. Which is exactly how long it takes PATS to reset after it thinks it's owner is a common thief when all he really wanted to do is run to the store for beer. But, I'm not bitter.
But I'm kinda wondering something. The PO had just had a really nice head unit installed in the dash that has bluetooth. I may be WAY off base here, but... I wonder if the bluetooth may be causing some sort of interference enough to give the PATS transceiver a brain fart as the module pings it? I dunno. I'm gonna call the locksmith tomorrow and see if he can come out and make a key for this thing and pair it.
PATS is not used after engine is running, you can physically remove the key(bad key cylinder, lol) and engine will stay running
PATS test is only at start up
So if power is cut to computer and restored the computer reboots and runs the PATS test again
The transceiver has a "wand" antenna around the key cylinder
It has 4 wires, 12v and ground, and then 2 data wires
The PATS software is in the computer so it initiates the PATS key test, the transceiver is passive in that it just acts as an antenna for the computer to read keys ID
in 2004 and up Rangers the HEC(hybrid electronic cluster) dash is now part of the PATS as well, cluster is part of the system so if swapped the engine won't start, or even if unplugged
I've read tons of stuff all over the internet both from Ford and shade-trees alike trying to find a solution that doesn't involve dynamite or a tall cliff somewhere.
As much as I'd love for it to be a simple fix, my luck dictates that this repair is going to be like trying to replace a heater core in a crushed Honda that lives under the sea, near the poop tube from a sewage treatment plant.
That being said, Can I do one of two things to fix this without using up all of the money I'm surely going to need for the divorce that trying to fix this stupid truck is going to cause?
Can I...
A. Use a remote start PATS bypass module (without installing a remote start) to come in the back door of the PCM, bypassing the factory alarm system interruptor?
-or-
B. Have my PCM flashed and reprogramed to eradicate PATS by a speed shop or some mail-in / repair serivce?
Otherwise, this thing is absolutely useless. Like I want to drop yet another and another grand into a 14 year old truck.
Sorry if my wording seems pressured and my tone comes off asinine, I'm just at my wit's end here.
EVERYTHING I've read so far all has the same undertone. "Either have Ford fix or replace EVERYTHING yourself and still have to have Ford fix it." I mean there are a buttload of folks out there who knows exactly how the system works but has offered no legitimate fix. Not to be rude, but at this point, I don't care how the thing works, I just want it to stop making it so I can't work because my the truck wont start.
I mean come on Ford!!! I know, FOR A FACT, that PATS can be circumvented quickly and easily. There are WAY to many Fords being written off by insurance companies for theft, including my elderly mother's Ford Escape which was stolen right out of her driveway. So... Kudos to Ford for making it so honest people have to pay out the wahzoo!
Well then. A cursory inspection yielded this fine example of aftermarket goodness perpetrated against an innocent vehicle.
Tapped into the factory harness, has a relay, and whatever this aftermarket harness was once hooked to is no longer in the vehicle.
I think this may be the source of the intermittent fault. So... I'm gonna dig this all out, fix it right then see if my problem resurfaces.
My intermittent no start sounds very much like mms1361's ---
My 2006 Ranger FX4 Level II, 4.0L, Automatic.--
THE GOOD BEHAVIOR The SecuriLock® (PATS) light flashes once every 2 seconds when the vehicle is parked, engine off and no key present. The PATS is "armed." This is expected behavior per the owner's manual. During "normal" starting event: The key switch is turned to the ON position, the PATS light stays on for 3 seconds, then goes out and PATS is "Disarmed.” All the dash warning icons (battery, oil, engine, etc) light up and turning the switch to the "START" position, the truck will start as expected.
THE BAD BEHAVIOR When the intermittent no-start or failure occurs: (Both keys produce the same results) With the key turned to the "ON" position, all the warning icons light up except the engine light, and the PATS light continues to flash slowly. Most of the most of the lights, the battery and oil lights remain on as expected and no noise from the fuel pump. However, the PATS light continues to flash slow. The switch is turned to the "START" position, but no starter activity. NOTE the PATS light is not flashing fast.
Moving the gear selector to neutral does not improve the results.
THE WORK-AROUNDS Waiting always works – let the truck sit from 5 minutes to several hours and the truck will start like nothing is wrong. The wait time varies and is not predictable. Sometimes, I have been able to start the truck by rapidly moving the switch from "ON" to "START" and on about the 4th or 5th hit on "START", it starts. I have done this three times now, but suspect is luck. Again, this is not consistent. Moving the switch between ON and START normally doesn’t seem to do anything to help.
OTHER KNOWN INFO
All battery and starter connections have been cleaned and/or replaced a couple of times.
The starter has been replaced twice by a Ford Service Tech. The first time was to remedy the no-start issue, but the truck failed to start 3 days later with the same symptoms. The second replacement was due to the starter staying engaged for too long. The transmission position sensor has been replaced by Ford Service, but the problem remains. The column shifter bolts have been checked and are tight. The after-market, non-Ford remote starter has been disconnected. Note the wiring remains installed, but the control box has been removed. Both Ford Service and the remote starter tech say this should not be causing the problem.When the remote start was connected, the same symptoms and results described previously were experienced during a failed start. Ford wanted to the remote starter system disconnected as a rule-out.
The no-start has recently increased in occurrences, from once or twice a year to 2-3 times a week.
Based on some information in this thread and another one, I'll try swapping the Starter Relay and Blower Motor Relay.
When the intermittent no-start or failure occurs: (Both keys produce the same results)
With the key turn to the "ON" position, all the warning icons light up except the engine light and gas cap light, while the PATS light continues to flash slowly. Most of the most of the lights, the battery and oil lights remain on as expected and no noise from the fuel pump. However, the PATS light continues to flash slow. The switch is turned to the "START" position, but no starter activity. NOTE the PATS light is not flashing fast.
Moving the gear selector to neutral does not improve the results.
THE WORK-AROUNDS
Waiting always works – let the truck sit from 5 minutes to several hours and the truck will start like nothing is wrong. The wait time varies and is not predictable.
Sometimes, I have been able to start the truck by rapidly moving the switch from "ON" to "START" and on about the 4th or 5th hit on "START", it starts. I have done this three times now, but suspect is luck. Again, this is not consistent. Moving the switch between ON and START normally doesn’t seem to do anything to help.
OTHER KNOWN INFO
All battery and starter connections have been cleaned and/or replaced a couple of times.
The starter has been replaced twice by a Ford Service Tech. The first time was to remedy the no-start issue, but the truck failed to start 3 days later with the same symptoms. The second replacement was due to the starter staying engaged too long.
The transmission position sensor (DTR) has been replaced by Ford Service, but the problem remains.
The column shifter bolts are tight.
The after-market, non-Ford remote starter has been disconnected. Note the wiring remains installed, but the control box has been removed. Both Ford Service and the remote starter tech say this should not cause the problem.
When the remote start was connected, the same symptoms and results described previously were experienced during a failed start. Ford wanted to the remote starter system disconnected as a rule-out.
The no-start has recently increased in occurrences, from once or twice a year to 2-3 times a week.
NORMAL START: The PATS light goes out after 3 seconds. Note the Engine and Gas Cap light are lit. Turn the key to START and I'm on my way. See below.
START FAILURE: The PATS light continues to flash 'normal' (every 2 seconds). Note the Engine and Gas Cap lights are not lit. See below.
Engine light(CEL) should be on when key is turned on and stay on until engine is running
If its off that means computer(PCM) is OFF
You have a 2006 Ranger?
That means it has a HEC instrument panel
HEC = hybrid electronic cluster
Cluster has its own computer inside and PATS is there, not in the engine computer, but PATS sends the engine computer the "OK to start" message
When I look up the wiring for 2006 HEC only the Gas cap and Engine light wires says "engine control system" connection, which is the engine computer, the PCM
On speculation I would change the PCM Relay or at the very least, pull out this relay and then turn on the key and see if the same lights are out
PCM relay is in engine fuse box #47 seen on page 168
The PCM relay is activated by key on
It power the PCM, of course, but also PATS and most engine systems, i.e. injectors, IAC, EVAP, ect.............and gas cap sensor I guess, lol, don't have wiring for that, but I bet it from EVAP system test which is powered by PCM relay
It could be the relay is marginal, or key on wire to it is
Or when you pull it out look at the connectors maybe its corroded
I removed the PCM relay and turned the key. This duplicated the dashlights exactly and seen in my START FAILURE picuture.
The relay connection appears to be clean, no obvious corrosion is seen from the top. I may attempt to remove the the engine fuse box to view the underside.
I reinserted/removed the PCM relay a few times attempting to scratch connection to remove any unseen corrosion.
I swapped the blower motor relay (box #55) and the PCM relay (same part #).
The good news is the truck started after all the fiddling, but I may not know if that proved anything for awhile.
After several successful starts with the relays swapped, the same symptoms appeared with the start failure occurred this morning. I presume this means the problem occurs prior to the PCM relay? Maybe the ignition switch under the dash?
Maybe, there are 4 wires that send 12volts OUT of the ignition switch, activating various devices/fuses in the cab fuse box
The PTC Circuit Breaker 1A, and then PCM Power Diode in the cab fuse box gets 12volts from ignition switch and sends that to PCM Relay to activate it
I don't have a location in that fuse box for those?
But that ignition switch wire also power airbag light on dash and 4WD module if you have a 4x4
I replaced the ignition starter switch one week ago. Today, the start issue repeated the symptoms. A curious new twist - With the switch left in the "ON/RUN" position, I slammed the driver side door and the engine and gas cap lights came on. I turned the key and it started.
During the switch replacement, I checked those remote starter wire connections and the block myself. They seem to soldiered solidly, but the installer had used standard black electrical tape, I'm not impressed. I re-wrapped the connections with fresh electrical tape (all I had handy). Prior the switch replacement, I had notice thed 4x4 Low indicator light comes on very dim (only seen at night) when the no-start occurs.
This issue seem to be related to a bad spot/connection somewhere?
Most of the dash warning lights, including the 4WD lights, all get 12volts with key on, they are GROUNDED to activate them, there is usually a "bulb test" with key on, all the bulbs are Grounded for 2 or 3 seconds, then unGrounded, for operation by their various trigger devices
A glowing bulb often indicates that that bulb is being used by another device for power of as a ground
Slamming the door and having bulbs actives does sound like a loose connection in the cab
Had this no crank issue recently on my 2008 Ranger recently. After driving and warming things up I'd stop somewhere and when I went to get back in and start I'd get about a 1/4 turnover of the engine and then nothing. Read through this thread a few times and went down the list of troubleshooting. Finally tracked it down to a loose corroded connection on the starter solenoid. I could wiggle them from above and it would crank right up.
09-17-2018
So... I'm gonna dig this all out, fix it right then see if my problem resurfaces.
