NOS Question?
#27
02-01-2005
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22
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From: Jacksonville, AL
Originally Posted by FoMoCoEdge
you dont understand...
Its not because the engine is bigger, so automatically it can handle more nitrous.. Stop thinking like a caveman...
These SOHC engines have a returnless fuel system,
when you spray, inside the intake manifold, you get puddling, of the nitrous, unused nitrous, and what does that puddled nitrous do inside the intake manifold..?
BAM! bye bye manifold.. Its not as easy as u think, you have to get rid of the access nitrous thats going inside the intake manifold..
The 97/98 Mountanier/Expolorer's came with a return fuel rail system.. Get that, around 600 bucks ..
And the engine could handle more of the nitrous.. Thing is, how much exactly do you want to spray into a plastic intake manifold?
But, you would also have to upgrade fuel systems, the stock fuel system can only compensate the nitrous/fuel ratio up to so big of a shot..
Too big of a shot, and not enough gas... Bye Bye engine..I've said enough.
Ok, now, no more topic archealoging.. This was posted in June of 03..
Its not because the engine is bigger, so automatically it can handle more nitrous.. Stop thinking like a caveman...
These SOHC engines have a returnless fuel system,
when you spray, inside the intake manifold, you get puddling, of the nitrous, unused nitrous, and what does that puddled nitrous do inside the intake manifold..?
BAM! bye bye manifold.. Its not as easy as u think, you have to get rid of the access nitrous thats going inside the intake manifold..
The 97/98 Mountanier/Expolorer's came with a return fuel rail system.. Get that, around 600 bucks ..
And the engine could handle more of the nitrous.. Thing is, how much exactly do you want to spray into a plastic intake manifold?
But, you would also have to upgrade fuel systems, the stock fuel system can only compensate the nitrous/fuel ratio up to so big of a shot..
Too big of a shot, and not enough gas... Bye Bye engine..I've said enough.
Ok, now, no more topic archealoging.. This was posted in June of 03..
PLASTIC INTAKES
Geez I feel sorry for you guys ;/ I'm use to import intake manifolds(not plastic) and we don't have puddling in the manifold. And I always recommend to people to go with a wet kit. Dry may be easier to install, but more risky.
#28
03-10-2005
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,190
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From: Central, MS
Originally Posted by FoMoCoEdge
was that at the wheels hp or flywheel, civic? im guessing flywheel...
DOnt double your hp? I garuntee that thing didnt have 115 at the wheels...
So, maybe 85hp due to drivetrain loss of hp...
50x2 = 100 , pass 85....
You dont know what your talking about...lol
DOnt double your hp? I garuntee that thing didnt have 115 at the wheels...
So, maybe 85hp due to drivetrain loss of hp...
50x2 = 100 , pass 85....
You dont know what your talking about...lol
Leo, i know exactly what im talking about with nitrous, i was stating a General rule of thumb of nitrous oxide use.
#29
03-12-2005
Unregistered User
Posts: n/a
Rule of thumb, go with 1/3rd of your current displacement if you want to have some form of longevity out of your engine..
"These SOHC engines have a returnless fuel system,
when you spray, inside the intake manifold, you get puddling, of the nitrous, unused nitrous, and what does that puddled nitrous do inside the intake manifold..?"
Note: Water from where the head sepperated from the block. After loosening just 2 of the bolts, the whole head had play. That was a 100% stock internal. It didn't frag ( The block , tho there were manifold pieces all over ) but it EASILY could have.
Lots of room to fab a better manifold anyway ( hint ). Always have a backup engine if your going to toy around. Hedders, chips, pullies, intakes.. easy bolt-on items, pulling an engine to swap/re-do the heads and play with a set of Overhead cams and tensioners is NOT fun.
Leo is correct, its something I picked up of Doug. You COULD run a small dry setup on out stock returnless systems. Tap off the fuelrail , drop pressure to the injectors, have your mixture run a bit too lean. Obtain a return style system and a GOOD fuel pump. Spend the extra effort and revenue on doing it correct the first time.
After 2 ( 3? ) manifolds and an engine, I finally listened.
D.
"These SOHC engines have a returnless fuel system,
when you spray, inside the intake manifold, you get puddling, of the nitrous, unused nitrous, and what does that puddled nitrous do inside the intake manifold..?"
Note: Water from where the head sepperated from the block. After loosening just 2 of the bolts, the whole head had play. That was a 100% stock internal. It didn't frag ( The block , tho there were manifold pieces all over ) but it EASILY could have.
Lots of room to fab a better manifold anyway ( hint ). Always have a backup engine if your going to toy around. Hedders, chips, pullies, intakes.. easy bolt-on items, pulling an engine to swap/re-do the heads and play with a set of Overhead cams and tensioners is NOT fun.
Leo is correct, its something I picked up of Doug. You COULD run a small dry setup on out stock returnless systems. Tap off the fuelrail , drop pressure to the injectors, have your mixture run a bit too lean. Obtain a return style system and a GOOD fuel pump. Spend the extra effort and revenue on doing it correct the first time.
After 2 ( 3? ) manifolds and an engine, I finally listened.
D.
Last edited by D.; 03-12-2005 at 05:22 AM.
#31
03-12-2005
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 2
From:
If you are not into serious racing anything more then a 50 shot is over kill. I don't have experiance with N20 on a ranger but I have some N20 experiance. I would think the 4.0L SHOULD be able to handle a 75 shot, I would not use more then that.
If I were you personally I would find a 50-75 shot wet kit and upgrade the fuel system if need be, ie fuel pump maybe more. Also I would most certainly would use a WOT switch.
I like ZEX kits, dont' think they make one for the ranger but they make a basic V6 kit, which should work.
I don't know what N2O would do off-roading but I don't think I would want to use it except when in WOT.
I take no responceabilty if you take my advise and cause any damage.
If I were you personally I would find a 50-75 shot wet kit and upgrade the fuel system if need be, ie fuel pump maybe more. Also I would most certainly would use a WOT switch.
I like ZEX kits, dont' think they make one for the ranger but they make a basic V6 kit, which should work.
I don't know what N2O would do off-roading but I don't think I would want to use it except when in WOT.
I take no responceabilty if you take my advise and cause any damage.
#32
03-12-2005
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 31
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From: Edmond, Oklahoma
#33
03-15-2005
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,072
Likes: 2
From: Cincinnati, Ohio
Got Carried Away...again
All that comes to mind right now is the Snoop Dogg song "Let's get blown." Take a look at how built up the drag racers engines are that use straight N20 systems. No blowers, or turbos. Straight N20. They build them like a tank so they don't blow up under stress from a good old 1000hp shot. and even then they still increase wear, and have to inspect the engine after every run so they dont run a hazard. They may not take the whole block apart, but they look over everything. N20 will destroy an engine if not properly built. Look at these little Civics running 500hp from N20 that eat vettes and vipers, they have to build a whole new enigne, from the oil pan to the head cover, just so the engine doesn't blow, and their money doesn't blow with it. What im saying is learn from racers, you can just throw a N20 system on and expect everything to be fine, you may not have to rebuild the whole engine, but you will have to replace a few rather important parts. Fuel rails, Lines, Pump, add a return. Then there is N20 safety don't forget about that, make sure you properly vent the N20, mount the bottle(s) properly, keep them from direct sunlight, dont use a cold bottle, the list goes on and on.
Last edited by karrbass4life; 03-15-2005 at 10:20 AM.
#34
03-15-2005
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: Knoxville, TN
I have a complete system on my Z28... running a 100 wet shot on a 114,000 mile valve covers have never been removed engine. No problems.
The HP rating on a shot is just an estimate. My kit squirting the same amount of juice into a civic is not going to net 100hp. Sorry, it just don't work that way.
I have seen a few V8's tuned with nitrous, and when they load the 100hp jets, some cars get it... some don't and some get more.
I saw a Grand national running what was suposed to be a 50hp shot on his 3.8 Turbo pushin 20psi on 100 Octane gas. His wet shot was good for about 120hp. Why, it super cooled the hot air that could not be cooled by the intercooler making the charge a lot more powerful. So he stepped up the fuel jet to the 150hp tune and found that he could run and extra lb of boost and not lean out. Netting around a 140 hp increase with a "50" shot.
All engines respond differently. I am under the assumption, and I have no proof of this other that what I saw hanging out at the local shop that had a chassis dyno, the kits are measured n what the expected result would be on a mildly build Small Block Chevy (350).
Lots of Myths out there about the good old "Juice". The fact is, that when used properly it is safe and not as hard n the engine as a turbo or supercharger becasue you don't use it nearly as often.
The HP rating on a shot is just an estimate. My kit squirting the same amount of juice into a civic is not going to net 100hp. Sorry, it just don't work that way.
I have seen a few V8's tuned with nitrous, and when they load the 100hp jets, some cars get it... some don't and some get more.
I saw a Grand national running what was suposed to be a 50hp shot on his 3.8 Turbo pushin 20psi on 100 Octane gas. His wet shot was good for about 120hp. Why, it super cooled the hot air that could not be cooled by the intercooler making the charge a lot more powerful. So he stepped up the fuel jet to the 150hp tune and found that he could run and extra lb of boost and not lean out. Netting around a 140 hp increase with a "50" shot.
All engines respond differently. I am under the assumption, and I have no proof of this other that what I saw hanging out at the local shop that had a chassis dyno, the kits are measured n what the expected result would be on a mildly build Small Block Chevy (350).
Lots of Myths out there about the good old "Juice". The fact is, that when used properly it is safe and not as hard n the engine as a turbo or supercharger becasue you don't use it nearly as often.
#35
03-15-2005
Unregistered User
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by karrbass4life
Look at these little Civics running 500hp from N20 that eat vettes and vipers, they have to build a whole new enigne, from the oil pan to the head cover, just so the engine doesn't blow, and their money doesn't blow with it..
Have a link to this? I would really like to see where a 4bangin honda block is going to take THAT kind of oxygen ingestion and actually be able to burn it all. Those are some mighty small cylinders and pistons to have that much volume of compressed oxygen squeezed in there.
D.
#37
03-23-2005
Unregistered User
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Kyle F
IThe HP rating on a shot is just an estimate. My kit squirting the same amount of juice into a civic is not going to net 100hp. Sorry, it just don't work that way.
All engines respond differently. I am under the assumption, and I have no proof of this other that what I saw hanging out at the local shop that had a chassis dyno, the kits are measured n what the expected result would be on a mildly build Small Block Chevy (350).
Lots of Myths out there about the good old "Juice". The fact is, that when used properly it is safe and not as hard n the engine as a turbo or supercharger becasue you don't use it nearly as often.
All engines respond differently. I am under the assumption, and I have no proof of this other that what I saw hanging out at the local shop that had a chassis dyno, the kits are measured n what the expected result would be on a mildly build Small Block Chevy (350).
Lots of Myths out there about the good old "Juice". The fact is, that when used properly it is safe and not as hard n the engine as a turbo or supercharger becasue you don't use it nearly as often.
It does vary. My first tuning attempt with a wet system was a 27 on gas and a 32 on nitrous. It netted something close to 35 at the wheels. On a civic ( d17a1, l4fi 1668cc ), the SAME jetting gained close to 55. Effeciency of combustion makes a world of difference. The same setup ( rather jetting ) on a d16y7 netted close to 70 before it grenaded. ( I bet people are wondering how I know all the codes to rice engines
... know thy enemy ) A more efficient engine will make less power when putting straight oxygen in it.
D.
#38
05-29-2005
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7
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From: Orlando, FL
From what I've gathered from reading and asking around, the consensus seems to be that a 50 shot wet kit would be doable without any other upgrades. I've been told the fuel pump will not have any problem supplying the extra fuel for this setup, and the drivetrain should be able to handle it as well. When you start going above this, that's when they suggest upgrading components. I've been looking at doing a 50 shot in my 4.0 SOHC and Nitrous Express has a universal wet kit for relatively cheap. (I think about $400). You can always call the company and get their opinion too; they should be able to give you some help.
#41
09-04-2005
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 788
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From: Tryon, NC
#42
12-06-2005
Hey Guys, A possible future Ranger owner here. And... I know nobody here knows me.. but I do know a thing or 20 about power adders on stock drivetrains.
There is an awfull lot of misunderstanding about nitrous. And a lot of bad experieces as a result.
As to the original questions. Adding nitrous to a off road vehicle with a stock drivetrain really does'nt appeal to me. Mostly because in that environment you'll want as linear a torque curve as you can get (to help control wheel speed). Turbos and nitrous don't give you that unless high quality controllers are used. Roots, and centrifugual blowers do. Roots types offer a tremdous amount of low end torque.. so be prepared to upgrade the weak links if you go that route.
Now for guys out on the roads using/wanting to use nitrous. Nitrous has had many failures because of many misunderstandings about how it functions.
It's all about the nitrous to fuel ratio **and** how well it gets distributed to each cylinder.
The number one reason people pop thier intakes & blow the motor is because of initial lean out. The "burn" is just too hot and too fast. That is to say.. it's too lean for the particular motor/plug/intake velocity. The flame front travels too quickly while the intake valve is still open, the burn starts, and back fires through the intake system before the inlet valve closes. If it does close.. and the burn is too hot then you get excessive cylinder pressures that the motor just can't stand up to.
This can be controlled by having the nitrous to fuel ratio in check as it enters the intake passage and past the valve.
It's really not much more complicated than that.
On a n.a. stock block ranger I'd suggest running a single nozzle that mixes the fuel and nitrous. (wet shot) Have the nozzle about 4" downstream of the throttle body and drop the plugs one range colder. And whatever you do!! Please please run high octane fuel.
Oh and btw: A 35% power improvement is about the limit for longevity in my eperiences. Take a 150hp motor add 52hp and your just about hitting the limit for reliability. Just a rule of thumb I've established I've over my years in drag racing nearly stock cars.
Regards, Rich
(02 lightning (blower and nitrous))
There is an awfull lot of misunderstanding about nitrous. And a lot of bad experieces as a result.
As to the original questions. Adding nitrous to a off road vehicle with a stock drivetrain really does'nt appeal to me. Mostly because in that environment you'll want as linear a torque curve as you can get (to help control wheel speed). Turbos and nitrous don't give you that unless high quality controllers are used. Roots, and centrifugual blowers do. Roots types offer a tremdous amount of low end torque.. so be prepared to upgrade the weak links if you go that route.
Now for guys out on the roads using/wanting to use nitrous. Nitrous has had many failures because of many misunderstandings about how it functions.
It's all about the nitrous to fuel ratio **and** how well it gets distributed to each cylinder.
The number one reason people pop thier intakes & blow the motor is because of initial lean out. The "burn" is just too hot and too fast. That is to say.. it's too lean for the particular motor/plug/intake velocity. The flame front travels too quickly while the intake valve is still open, the burn starts, and back fires through the intake system before the inlet valve closes. If it does close.. and the burn is too hot then you get excessive cylinder pressures that the motor just can't stand up to.
This can be controlled by having the nitrous to fuel ratio in check as it enters the intake passage and past the valve.
It's really not much more complicated than that.
On a n.a. stock block ranger I'd suggest running a single nozzle that mixes the fuel and nitrous. (wet shot) Have the nozzle about 4" downstream of the throttle body and drop the plugs one range colder. And whatever you do!! Please please run high octane fuel.
Oh and btw: A 35% power improvement is about the limit for longevity in my eperiences. Take a 150hp motor add 52hp and your just about hitting the limit for reliability. Just a rule of thumb I've established I've over my years in drag racing nearly stock cars.
Regards, Rich
(02 lightning (blower and nitrous))
Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 12-06-2005 at 02:39 PM.
#45
12-07-2005
Nitrous boils when released into the atmosphere. So nitrous can't puddle in the intake. It'll simply be a gas as it travels through, into, around, up, down, ect..
What can puddle is fuel (wet shot). It's called fuel drop out. This is caused by several things. Excessive fuel in the plume as it leaves the nozzle, shooting upwards and gravity somewhat pulling the heavier droplet out, shooting right at a intake wall, poor nozzle design, or improper nozzle installation.
As far as a dry shot goes.. ***as long as*** your putting enough fuel into the cylinders and ***as long as*** the nitrous is evenly distributed from cyl to cyl you'll be ok. So many assumptions are taking place here that it's more risky. The only other side effect of a dry shot is that the nitrous/fuel charge going past the intake valve really has not mixed well. The power will be inconsistant because of the inadequate mix.
If you do go with a dry shot, keep it light and step the plugs down one or two ranges. Your effectively leaning out the air/nitrous/fuel ratio with a dry shot. Leaner mixes make more power. But it's also more risky.
btw: Here is a NOS brand nozzle and a racetested nozzle in action. (I have the www.racetested.com kit on mine) Later today I'll post more about thier top quality kits and their ability to 100% control the nitrous. (it takes an awfull lot of this guess work and past mistakes out of the whole situation)
Rich
What can puddle is fuel (wet shot). It's called fuel drop out. This is caused by several things. Excessive fuel in the plume as it leaves the nozzle, shooting upwards and gravity somewhat pulling the heavier droplet out, shooting right at a intake wall, poor nozzle design, or improper nozzle installation.
As far as a dry shot goes.. ***as long as*** your putting enough fuel into the cylinders and ***as long as*** the nitrous is evenly distributed from cyl to cyl you'll be ok. So many assumptions are taking place here that it's more risky. The only other side effect of a dry shot is that the nitrous/fuel charge going past the intake valve really has not mixed well. The power will be inconsistant because of the inadequate mix.
If you do go with a dry shot, keep it light and step the plugs down one or two ranges. Your effectively leaning out the air/nitrous/fuel ratio with a dry shot. Leaner mixes make more power. But it's also more risky.
btw: Here is a NOS brand nozzle and a racetested nozzle in action. (I have the www.racetested.com kit on mine) Later today I'll post more about thier top quality kits and their ability to 100% control the nitrous. (it takes an awfull lot of this guess work and past mistakes out of the whole situation)
Rich
#46
12-07-2005
i'd consider a nx 50shot wet kit if i wasnt hearing so much about early detonation and blown manifolds due to puddling :o/
*Generally speaking* fuel does'nt puddle in the intake system as people seem to think. *Generally speaking* with a fixed hit of nitrous you get an initial lean out like I was saying earlier. The nitrous is under 1000psi and instantly boils as soon as it flows past the jet in most of the popular kits. (Like NX and NOS) The fuel is only under 40-50psi on a EFI motor and has to be atomized (actually small droplets) via a nozzle design. Surface tension of the droplets want's to make them stay in a fluid state so the nozzle design really plays a part in getting a good "plume".
Most every nitrous kit I've ever seen has equal length tubing from the solinoid to the jet/nozzle. This means that the N02 will get to the nozzle and therefor the cylinder quicker than the trailing fuel which is only at 5% the pressure and is in a semi liquid state!
The nitrous to fuel ratio hitting the cylinder is waaaay to lean, burns to quick and the flame front propigates into the now oxygen and fuel rich intake manifold. BOOM... not good. Not good at all.
The proof in what I'm saying here is to look at when stock motors back fire through the intake? That's right.. when they first "hit it" or in between shifts as it's turning off/on.
The real fix to this problem is to shoot the fuel first *and* make sure the N02 / fuel is mixed as good as it can be.
Sorry guys.. I'm a newbie who has'nt even bought a ranger yet! You'd think I was a nitrous salesman of something.
Rich
Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 12-07-2005 at 11:26 AM.
#47
12-07-2005
btw: I run a fully adjustable setup on my lightning. I shoot fuel 0.2 seconds before the nitrous and I ramp the shot size up from 25ish HP to 100HP over about 2 seconds time frame. It so sweet.. the truck just takes off w/o spinning much at all. And that's a big advantage in racing and for motor longevity.
Regards, Rich
Regards, Rich
#49
12-07-2005
Nothing. The returnless systems on the 99+ fords (not sure about the rangers years) does'nt really have much of an effect at moderate levels of nitrous usage. If I were trying a 125hp and above shot I might investigate an add on pump or bigger supply lines.
The easiest way to tell if what I'm thinking is true.... would be to equip the truck with a nitrous kit, a fuel pressure guage tapped into the fuel rail, and then go WOT with the bottle *off*. If your fuel pressure drops more than about 3psi then you know you have to upgrade the applicable parts before actually shooting nitrous.
btw: I always read plugs and measure EGTs when shooting. Man does it go a long way towards knowing what's going on in the motor. Little things like bottle temp/pressure can be seen in the EGTs. (basicly my A/F ratio)
Rich
The easiest way to tell if what I'm thinking is true.... would be to equip the truck with a nitrous kit, a fuel pressure guage tapped into the fuel rail, and then go WOT with the bottle *off*. If your fuel pressure drops more than about 3psi then you know you have to upgrade the applicable parts before actually shooting nitrous.
btw: I always read plugs and measure EGTs when shooting. Man does it go a long way towards knowing what's going on in the motor. Little things like bottle temp/pressure can be seen in the EGTs. (basicly my A/F ratio)
Rich
#50
12-09-2005
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,046
Likes: 1
From: San Diego, CA
ok... so i sent nx an email regarding puddling in the 3.0... here's what they said;
-------------------------
Brian,
First, I would like to begin by pointing out that "puddling" is just a term for people to use as a reason for backfires because they don't really know what causes the backfires. Puddling has never been proven. Think about it, liquid fuel does not ignite, only atomized fuel and the fumes can ignite. So even it fuel did puddle in the intake it would be in liquid form. The atomized part of the fuel and the fumes would still be sucked into the cylinders, so only the liquid would be left in the intake. Another reason that puddling is highly unlikely is due to our nozzle design. It atomizes the fuel better than other nozzles on the market, which makes the chance of there being enough unatomized fuel coming from the nozzle to puddle very remote.
With all of that being said, you will be perfectly safe running 35-50hp on your truck with a wet system. The Stg.1 EFI system will work well on your truck. I would also recommend getting the GenX-2 accessory package. It includes a bottle heater, purge kit, bottle pressure gauge, fuel pressure safety switch, and a blow down tube.
-------------------------
what do you guys think about that?
-------------------------
Brian,
First, I would like to begin by pointing out that "puddling" is just a term for people to use as a reason for backfires because they don't really know what causes the backfires. Puddling has never been proven. Think about it, liquid fuel does not ignite, only atomized fuel and the fumes can ignite. So even it fuel did puddle in the intake it would be in liquid form. The atomized part of the fuel and the fumes would still be sucked into the cylinders, so only the liquid would be left in the intake. Another reason that puddling is highly unlikely is due to our nozzle design. It atomizes the fuel better than other nozzles on the market, which makes the chance of there being enough unatomized fuel coming from the nozzle to puddle very remote.
With all of that being said, you will be perfectly safe running 35-50hp on your truck with a wet system. The Stg.1 EFI system will work well on your truck. I would also recommend getting the GenX-2 accessory package. It includes a bottle heater, purge kit, bottle pressure gauge, fuel pressure safety switch, and a blow down tube.
-------------------------
what do you guys think about that?
