amplifier question..
#1
01-14-2008
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From: Woodland Hills, California
#4
01-15-2008
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Woodland Hills, California
Alright.. In that case, I'm getting a Sony XS-LB10S sub/enclosure. I'm really not looking to spend more than $100 on an amp, whether it be used or not. I found a Power Acoustik 300 Watt RMS, 1000 Watt Max Sub Amp on SonixElectronix.com
Should I go with that one, or should I get a 4 Channel Amp from somewhere else, and just bridge it? What amp will work best with that sub?
Should I go with that one, or should I get a 4 Channel Amp from somewhere else, and just bridge it? What amp will work best with that sub?
#6
01-15-2008
Unregistered User
Posts: n/a
When purchasing an amp, always apply ' safe math '.
If your speakers can handle 120 watts, use a 100 watt amplifier. NEVER go over the ratings of the total consumption the speakers can handle.
Some will say underpowering speakers will cost you ' quality ', not always true.
In my guitar rig, I have 4 4x12 enclosures. Each cab has 4 ' greenback ' speakers rated at 30watts. Each Cab can handle 120 watts, yet I only power them with 50 watts.
The ' mains ' on my JBL P.A. can handle 2800 watts on the bottom end and 1700 on the top. I might use HALF of what they can handle.
No noise, no blown speakers/horns, no worries.
Higher wattage ratings don't really mean a thing. 50 watts of A/B Tube to that 4x12 Marshall cab for my guitar will totally drown out some of these alledged SPL/Competition audio car setups claiming to have millions of watts.
If your speakers can handle 120 watts, use a 100 watt amplifier. NEVER go over the ratings of the total consumption the speakers can handle.
Some will say underpowering speakers will cost you ' quality ', not always true.
In my guitar rig, I have 4 4x12 enclosures. Each cab has 4 ' greenback ' speakers rated at 30watts. Each Cab can handle 120 watts, yet I only power them with 50 watts.
The ' mains ' on my JBL P.A. can handle 2800 watts on the bottom end and 1700 on the top. I might use HALF of what they can handle.
No noise, no blown speakers/horns, no worries.
Higher wattage ratings don't really mean a thing. 50 watts of A/B Tube to that 4x12 Marshall cab for my guitar will totally drown out some of these alledged SPL/Competition audio car setups claiming to have millions of watts.
#8
01-15-2008
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Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Simi Valley, CA
Actually most people Recomend going a little OVER the power raiting, you can always turn the amp down on the gain but if your underpowered you drive the amp hard you for it into a square wave and it clips, This could damage the amp and or the sub woofer.
Never use knowledge of guitar amps for car amps, They are designed differently. Guitar amps are made to be driven out of range for clipping and distortion Car/home aduio amps are not. Even PA Speakers used for guitar amps and bass amps are designed differently.
From Crutchfield
http://www.crutchfield.com/learningc...ing_guide.html
Never use knowledge of guitar amps for car amps, They are designed differently. Guitar amps are made to be driven out of range for clipping and distortion Car/home aduio amps are not. Even PA Speakers used for guitar amps and bass amps are designed differently.
From Crutchfield
How powerful an amp do I need?
Choose an amplifier whose power output matches the power handling of the speakers you'll be amplifying. Make sure you're comparing the RMS power ratings of both the amp and speakers. And remember — it's better to overpower your speakers a little than to send them too little power.
Choose an amplifier whose power output matches the power handling of the speakers you'll be amplifying. Make sure you're comparing the RMS power ratings of both the amp and speakers. And remember — it's better to overpower your speakers a little than to send them too little power.
#9
01-15-2008
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 668
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From: Woodland Hills, California
#10
01-15-2008
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
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From: Simi Valley, CA
50 Bucks for a name brand amp that puts out 250Watts rms into 4 ohms bridged is not bad, I just would not expect your sub to hit its max potential, if your limited on cash get it, if you can hold out to get something that will do the 330 or 350 i would do that, check out crutchfield.com check out the profile amps there cheep but they actually sound pretty good they offer a 3 year warranty.
They have some that put out what you need for 50 or so more$
If you amp is under powered because its all you can afford just dont drive the amp hard that it clips and causes the amp to go into a square wave.
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Produ...rand%7cProfile
They have some that put out what you need for 50 or so more$
If you amp is under powered because its all you can afford just dont drive the amp hard that it clips and causes the amp to go into a square wave.
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Produ...rand%7cProfile
#12
01-15-2008
Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 339
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From: LANSING, MI
Originally Posted by Midnightrider
Actually most people Recomend going a little OVER the power raiting, you can always turn the amp down on the gain but if your underpowered you drive the amp hard you for it into a square wave and it clips, This could damage the amp and or the sub woofer.
Never use knowledge of guitar amps for car amps, They are designed differently. Guitar amps are made to be driven out of range for clipping and distortion Car/home aduio amps are not. Even PA Speakers used for guitar amps and bass amps are designed differently.
From Crutchfield
http://www.crutchfield.com/learningc...ing_guide.html
Never use knowledge of guitar amps for car amps, They are designed differently. Guitar amps are made to be driven out of range for clipping and distortion Car/home aduio amps are not. Even PA Speakers used for guitar amps and bass amps are designed differently.
From Crutchfield
http://www.crutchfield.com/learningc...ing_guide.html
#13
01-15-2008
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
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From: Simi Valley, CA
#14
01-16-2008
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 668
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From: Woodland Hills, California
Alright, Thanks for all your help guys. I'll either go with the Profile amps on Crutchfield or if he still has it, that Kicker. I'm just still kind of curious because some people are saying to underpower it, and some are telling me to overpower it a little.
I also heard that Sony was overrated in power and Kicker was actually underrated..
can anyone verify this?
I also heard that Sony was overrated in power and Kicker was actually underrated..
can anyone verify this?
#15
01-16-2008
Unregistered User
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Midnightrider
Never use knowledge of guitar amps for car amps, They are designed differently. Guitar amps are made to be driven out of range for clipping and distortion..
Car/home aduio amps are not. Even PA Speakers used for guitar amps and bass amps are designed differently.
From Crutchfield
I wonder if the folks at Crutchfield ever play with setups like this -- >
https://www.carvinguitars.com/produc...uct=TRX153-44T
#16
01-16-2008
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
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From: Simi Valley, CA
I have read many articles of amplifiers not just crutchfield that says to slightly over power your speakers, you hand me a 100 watt bass speaker I hook it up to a 100 watt amp and watch is it can not produce excursion.
Again think square wave. If you drive an amp into square wave your sub does not produce a sin-wave. Now your speaker just moves forward and back abruptly. This does not give the VC a chance to cool off at all.
When I say over power your sub I dont mean take a 100 watt sub drive it with 300 watts yes you will just melt the coil.
have a 300 watt sub and your amp does 330 its a better combo. 300 watt sub 200 watt amp higher chance of driving it into a square wave because the amp can not drive the speaker.
If you say your guitar amps are the same you run your stereo into it and enjoy.
Btw the reason you can Under power a guitar speaker and it still be pretty loud is because they tend to have a higher SPL and the speaker can prodoce more sound per watt.
Im not here to get into a debate. Just to let someone know its always better to have a little more power on your amp than your speaker needs. Most people want to crank there tunes once in a while and its better to have the power there to back it up than not be there at all.
Most amps never are equal to subs even same brand names never have the same power rating between the two.
Last note, crutchfield was something i could just grab at a spur of the moment while at work.
Again think square wave. If you drive an amp into square wave your sub does not produce a sin-wave. Now your speaker just moves forward and back abruptly. This does not give the VC a chance to cool off at all.
When I say over power your sub I dont mean take a 100 watt sub drive it with 300 watts yes you will just melt the coil.
have a 300 watt sub and your amp does 330 its a better combo. 300 watt sub 200 watt amp higher chance of driving it into a square wave because the amp can not drive the speaker.
If you say your guitar amps are the same you run your stereo into it and enjoy.
Btw the reason you can Under power a guitar speaker and it still be pretty loud is because they tend to have a higher SPL and the speaker can prodoce more sound per watt.
Im not here to get into a debate. Just to let someone know its always better to have a little more power on your amp than your speaker needs. Most people want to crank there tunes once in a while and its better to have the power there to back it up than not be there at all.
Most amps never are equal to subs even same brand names never have the same power rating between the two.
Last note, crutchfield was something i could just grab at a spur of the moment while at work.
Last edited by Midnightrider; 01-16-2008 at 11:14 AM.
#17
01-16-2008
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 668
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From: Woodland Hills, California
yeah, i'm not going to get involved in the discussion between you two because frankly, I don't know much about guitar amps. I have a Line 6, it gives me awesome distortion, and thats all i know hahaha.
if the kicker realistically pushes out more than 250 watts, and the sony realistically pushes out less than 330 watts, would this still be too much of a difference? i don't know. maybe someone should just point out an amp that is in my price range, such as the Profile amp, that will be sufficient for that sub..
if the kicker realistically pushes out more than 250 watts, and the sony realistically pushes out less than 330 watts, would this still be too much of a difference? i don't know. maybe someone should just point out an amp that is in my price range, such as the Profile amp, that will be sufficient for that sub..
#18
01-16-2008
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Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Perry, Florida
i would buy it if it were me but if you want another option http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAu...roductID=16689 it is a little over powered but should be ok.
#19
01-16-2008
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
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From: Simi Valley, CA
The reason i recommended the profiles because I used two of them till I purchased my infinity amps, they were pretty good amps for the buck, if I was not being picky and wanting everything infinity i would have stayed with them.
Its a matter of over driving an amp to make the sub perform at its peak.
Honestly you really wont hear a difference between 250 and 300, its just a matter of over driving an amp and hurting one or the other. You need to almost double your wattage to hear a difference. Just like subs 10" vs 12" same brand and model just size difference sound will almost be the same but double them two 10" or two 12" and you just now increased your DB Gain. and even then not much.
Its a matter of over driving an amp to make the sub perform at its peak.
Honestly you really wont hear a difference between 250 and 300, its just a matter of over driving an amp and hurting one or the other. You need to almost double your wattage to hear a difference. Just like subs 10" vs 12" same brand and model just size difference sound will almost be the same but double them two 10" or two 12" and you just now increased your DB Gain. and even then not much.
#21
01-16-2008
Unregistered User
Posts: n/a
I unnderstand what your saying, and its different applications. My experience is with REAL avenues of ' live sound ' and recording.
Honestly, Car audio is a dime a dozen to me. I'm not ' downing ' it, its just boring for myself. Just replication of someone elses goods/sounds.
What your leaving out of the equasion is ' headroom '. At a MINIMUM I run a 15-20% headroom so theres no chance at popping a 500-1000$ speaker or horn. Feedback from mic gain is the most damaging entity in itself. ( car audio has no such worries though )
Carvin, Behringer and Ashley all have limiters/band-pass filters in their amps, no chance for a Squarewave what-so-ever.
Good show ! ( agreed ) .
That would NEVER happen in any rig I setup. Thats just asking for trouble.
This might sound rude ( I'm being 100% honest in asking ) , but is car audio that far behind live audio? My monitor amp is an OLD Ashley, Its FET driven, and it even has a limiter and a clip in it to prevent such.
Actually, channel 54 on my JBL rig has an Insert with a balanced xlr that goes to an older iMac to run iTunes between sets. Theres NOTHING like 8 18inch JBL's pushing 3000watts a side in W-Wedge Cabs rumbeling a building. My guitar amp isn't a ' full range ' rig. Actually It has a high and low pass filter set at 100hz and 8khz. Being a 440-A tuned instraument, there are frequencies never used by a guitar as ( harmonically ) it cannot go down that low nor up that high in frequency. It wouldn't work, parts of a song or certainn instrauments won't ' come out '. But through the crossover in the mains, it comes out nicely.
DBX Drive-Racks are nice :)
True. But P.A. Systems use common ' loud speakers '. In a live performance, nobody needs 50stack amps behind them. I take all 4 of my cabs but 3 are for show, only 1 is producing sound/is hooked up. I let the Mains do all the work. Things get too noisy on stage and people can't hear one another.. 50 watts of A/B rectification against 10K+ of P.A. system.. iI would have better luck with a Louisville Slugger against an M1 Abrams tank.
You don't believe such would be bad for a speaker and cause cone failure? or burn the coil?
If someone needs something THAT loud, they should buy GOOD speakers and amps so it would be reliable at certain levels and no risk would be taken.
Then again, I have seen live rigs for main acts fail and leave a band hanging.
Yep.
My brother has been running live sound for the last.. 30ish years. He owns a studio and spends about 6 months a year on the road for country acts. Brooks and Dunn, Blackhawk ( those guys are alright! ), Tanya Tucker a few years back, Clint Black..
Crutchfield might know something about car audio, but they don't know a damn thing about ' big rigs '. Maybe Car-audio and Live rigs are ' different animals ', but I find it odd that the SAME speakers are used in a lot of setups. Porting, enclosures, materials.. all quite common.
Usually when testing a new amp that comes in ( Yes, Carvin amps DO go! They go BOOM too! ), it gets put on a bench with a ' load '. The amp is then ' run up ' and ' burned in ' for a 6-8 hr period and checked for power levels to make sure they are within specs so theres NO CHANCE of wasting a cab during a performance. Sure, a spike might happen, but its very rare when all the juice is run to a Furman ( usually an M-8L ) or a ' Juice Goose '.
Are car audio amps factory tested as such or is it ' buy and pray '? Does car audio even have set ' standards '? It sure doesn't sound like it or they are trying to do something ' different ' then whats been done for many years.
Honestly, Car audio is a dime a dozen to me. I'm not ' downing ' it, its just boring for myself. Just replication of someone elses goods/sounds.
Originally Posted by Midnightrider
I have read many articles of amplifiers not just crutchfield that says to slightly over power your speakers, you hand me a 100 watt bass speaker I hook it up to a 100 watt amp and watch is it can not produce excursion.
Again think square wave. If you drive an amp into square wave your sub does not produce a sin-wave. Now your speaker just moves forward and back abruptly. This does not give the VC a chance to cool off at all.
When I say over power your sub I dont mean take a 100 watt sub drive it with 300 watts yes you will just melt the coil.
have a 300 watt sub and your amp does 330 its a better combo.
300 watt sub 200 watt amp higher chance of driving it into a square wave because the amp can not drive the speaker.
If you say your guitar amps are the same you run your stereo into it and enjoy.
DBX Drive-Racks are nice :)
Btw the reason you can Under power a guitar speaker and it still be pretty loud is because they tend to have a higher SPL and the speaker can prodoce more sound per watt.
Im not here to get into a debate. Just to let someone know its always better to have a little more power on your amp than your speaker needs.
Most people want to crank there tunes once in a while and its better to have the power there to back it up than not be there at all.
Then again, I have seen live rigs for main acts fail and leave a band hanging.
Most amps never are equal to subs even same brand names never have the same power rating between the two.
Last note, crutchfield was something i could just grab at a spur of the moment while at work.
Crutchfield might know something about car audio, but they don't know a damn thing about ' big rigs '. Maybe Car-audio and Live rigs are ' different animals ', but I find it odd that the SAME speakers are used in a lot of setups. Porting, enclosures, materials.. all quite common.
Usually when testing a new amp that comes in ( Yes, Carvin amps DO go! They go BOOM too! ), it gets put on a bench with a ' load '. The amp is then ' run up ' and ' burned in ' for a 6-8 hr period and checked for power levels to make sure they are within specs so theres NO CHANCE of wasting a cab during a performance. Sure, a spike might happen, but its very rare when all the juice is run to a Furman ( usually an M-8L ) or a ' Juice Goose '.
Are car audio amps factory tested as such or is it ' buy and pray '? Does car audio even have set ' standards '? It sure doesn't sound like it or they are trying to do something ' different ' then whats been done for many years.
#22
01-16-2008
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
From: Woodland Hills, California
I have another question actually...
On the Crunch amp, it says the RMS is 400 Watts bridged at 4 ohms, however, the "MAX" power is also 400 watts. so the rms is also the max output? wttff?
and i found this bazooka sub/amp combo. I had a bazooka before, an 8 inch powered one, with only 50 watts max power. it actually sounded pretty good for what it was, but i'm wondering if this 8-incher with 330 watts RMS will sound good?
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...+e2+E400.html#
On the Crunch amp, it says the RMS is 400 Watts bridged at 4 ohms, however, the "MAX" power is also 400 watts. so the rms is also the max output? wttff?
and i found this bazooka sub/amp combo. I had a bazooka before, an 8 inch powered one, with only 50 watts max power. it actually sounded pretty good for what it was, but i'm wondering if this 8-incher with 330 watts RMS will sound good?
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...+e2+E400.html#
#23
01-16-2008
Unregistered User
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by jamesxEDGE
I have another question actually...
On the Crunch amp, it says the RMS is 400 Watts bridged at 4 ohms, however, the "MAX" power is also 400 watts. so the rms is also the max output? wttff?
On the Crunch amp, it says the RMS is 400 Watts bridged at 4 ohms, however, the "MAX" power is also 400 watts. so the rms is also the max output? wttff?
In a power band ( full wave ) , ' peak ' is the value from the highest point to ' 0 '. ' Peak to peak ' is a full wave reading that measures the highest to absolute lowest value. RMS is a ' peak ' value times ( multiplied ) by 0.707 .
100 watts peak power = 200 watts peak-to-peak ( usually ) = 70.7watts RMS.
#24
01-17-2008
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
From: Woodland Hills, California
Originally Posted by D.
Theres 3 different power ratings. ' Peak ', ' Peak to peak ' and RMS ( root-mean-square ).
In a power band ( full wave ) , ' peak ' is the value from the highest point to ' 0 '. ' Peak to peak ' is a full wave reading that measures the highest to absolute lowest value. RMS is a ' peak ' value times ( multiplied ) by 0.707 .
100 watts peak power = 200 watts peak-to-peak ( usually ) = 70.7watts RMS.
In a power band ( full wave ) , ' peak ' is the value from the highest point to ' 0 '. ' Peak to peak ' is a full wave reading that measures the highest to absolute lowest value. RMS is a ' peak ' value times ( multiplied ) by 0.707 .
100 watts peak power = 200 watts peak-to-peak ( usually ) = 70.7watts RMS.
because apparently it's supposed to have 400 watts peak, and run my sub at 400 watts RMS at 4 ohms bridged..
#25
01-17-2008
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
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From: Simi Valley, CA
Ok just so you know you will not blow a car sub Wtih any popping, Even if the amp is 330 watts and the sub is 300 most car subs can handle a peek of double there RMS. Its also another reason car amps have a thud protection circuit built in. I have been doing car stereo's since I was 16 I am now 29 as of today, I have not blown one sub one amp or one head unit.
